HUFFYUV or Canopus ADVC300 for best VHS analog capture?

[J.W.]

I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
I've been doing it "wrong" so far. This is the current setup I use:

VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)

After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content. Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result in a poor
quality DVD.

My intention is to archive the VHS content to DVD with good enough
quality that I could feel comfortable throwing the old tapes away.
Yes, I know you can spend $100,000 on top-tier broadcast equipment but
I'm guessing you can get 99% of the high-quality with cheaper
consumer-grade devices.

After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv. However, I noticed that
Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300) that specifically cleans up
analog videotapes (such as VHS).

So the overview of the two methods as I see it...

Method #1: Huffyuv
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)

Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
**looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach

Some questions:
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??


Comments and advice welcome...

[Jeremy Wrinklebottom]

i make a lot of music dvds from mtv into my vcr(pass through) , into a
canopus converter then panasonic dv camcorder(pass through)
what i do is i have a video rca into the canopus , then a svhs lead out of
canopus into panasonic dv camcorder,
then firewire out from panasonic dv into pc.
i noticed this has sharpened the picture up considerably for me,
however the drawback is the audio on some has been out about a quater of a
second.
takes time to fix it all up , but i found the result was better than before
i involved the dv camcorder.

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content. Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result in a poor
quality DVD.
My intention is to archive the VHS content to DVD with good enough
quality that I could feel comfortable throwing the old tapes away.
Yes, I know you can spend $100,000 on top-tier broadcast equipment but
I'm guessing you can get 99% of the high-quality with cheaper
consumer-grade devices.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv. However, I noticed that
Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300) that specifically cleans up
analog videotapes (such as VHS).
So the overview of the two methods as I see it...
Method #1: Huffyuv
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)
Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
**looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??
Comments and advice welcome...

[Leonid Makarovsky]

J.W. <***@att.net> wrote:

: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
: I've been doing it "wrong" so far. This is the current setup I use:

: VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
: analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
: firewire card fed captured by...
: Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
: DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)

: After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
: learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from

That's true. But all you need to do is to compare your end result to original
VHS tapes. If you don't find much of a difference, you're good. If you find
a big difference and want to re-do the stuff, then read further.

: Method #1: Huffyuv
: **use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
: **Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
: **larger files (20+ gb an hour??)

You will need to buy a capture (TV Tuner card) that will do a great AD (analog
to digital) conversion into Huffyuv codec AVI. Then there's a possibility that
your sound will be a bit out of sync with your video, so you will have to
adjust it. Then you will need to use software encoding method to encode into
a DVD format.

Pros: You can edit the sound, replace, separate it etc etc. You are able to
have uncompress sound, Dolby sound, mpeg-2 sound, ou name it for a DVD.
If you have a very good soundcard like Audiophile 2496, you are taking
advantage of better ADC than Canopus has.
If you need to transfer from LaserDisc using digital sound, soundcard
is the only way to go.
Cons: The whole process takes a lot of time before you start authoring a DVD.
Converting an hour video to MPEG-2 takes 6 hours!

: Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
: http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
: **creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
: **looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach

I haven't had Canopus, but I know it's a good quality product. So you may end
up with the same quality as Method 1 and it may take about the same amount of
time to convert DV AVI into a DVD compliant MPEG-2. That's why consider
Method 3.

Method 3:
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/MPEGPRO_MVR/pm_MPEGPRO_MVR.asp

Pros: This records directly to DVD compliant MPEG-2. No extra time needed.
Cons: Records into MPEG-2 - you can't edit anything including sound.

So depending if you want to do post processing editing or not, you may want
to decide between methods 1 and 3.

: What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
: Huffyuv codec?

Any TV Tuner card can work with Huffyuv codec. When you buy the card, make
sure it's Philips based and not Conexant based.

--Leonid

[luminos]

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
: VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
: analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
: firewire card fed captured by...
: Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
: DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
: After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
: learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
That's true. But all you need to do is to compare your end result to original
VHS tapes. If you don't find much of a difference, you're good. If you find
a big difference and want to re-do the stuff, then read further.
: Method #1: Huffyuv
: **use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
: **Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
: **larger files (20+ gb an hour??)
You will need to buy a capture (TV Tuner card) that will do a great AD (analog
to digital) conversion into Huffyuv codec AVI. Then there's a possibility that
your sound will be a bit out of sync with your video, so you will have to
adjust it. Then you will need to use software encoding method to encode into
a DVD format.
Pros: You can edit the sound, replace, separate it etc etc. You are able to
have uncompress sound, Dolby sound, mpeg-2 sound, ou name it for a DVD.
If you have a very good soundcard like Audiophile 2496, you are taking
advantage of better ADC than Canopus has.
If you need to transfer from LaserDisc using digital sound, soundcard
is the only way to go.
Cons: The whole process takes a lot of time before you start authoring a DVD.
Converting an hour video to MPEG-2 takes 6 hours!
: Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
: http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
: **creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
: **looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
I haven't had Canopus, but I know it's a good quality product. So you may end
up with the same quality as Method 1 and it may take about the same amount of
time to convert DV AVI into a DVD compliant MPEG-2. That's why consider
Method 3.
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/MPEGPRO_MVR/pm_MPEGPRO_MVR.asp
Pros: This records directly to DVD compliant MPEG-2. No extra time needed.
Cons: Records into MPEG-2 - you can't edit anything including sound.

I have had no trouble editing Mpeg2 with Tmpeg or Nero Vision Express 2.

[luminos]

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
: VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
: analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
: firewire card fed captured by...
: Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
: DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
: After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
: learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
That's true. But all you need to do is to compare your end result to original
VHS tapes. If you don't find much of a difference, you're good. If you find
a big difference and want to re-do the stuff, then read further.
: Method #1: Huffyuv
: **use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
: **Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
: **larger files (20+ gb an hour??)
You will need to buy a capture (TV Tuner card) that will do a great AD (analog
to digital) conversion into Huffyuv codec AVI. Then there's a possibility that
your sound will be a bit out of sync with your video, so you will have to
adjust it. Then you will need to use software encoding method to encode into
a DVD format.
Pros: You can edit the sound, replace, separate it etc etc. You are able to
have uncompress sound, Dolby sound, mpeg-2 sound, ou name it for a DVD.
If you have a very good soundcard like Audiophile 2496, you are taking
advantage of better ADC than Canopus has.
If you need to transfer from LaserDisc using digital sound, soundcard
is the only way to go.
Cons: The whole process takes a lot of time before you start authoring a DVD.
Converting an hour video to MPEG-2 takes 6 hours!
: Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
: http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
: **creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
: **looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
I haven't had Canopus, but I know it's a good quality product. So you may end
up with the same quality as Method 1 and it may take about the same amount of
time to convert DV AVI into a DVD compliant MPEG-2. That's why consider
Method 3.
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/MPEGPRO_MVR/pm_MPEGPRO_MVR.asp

It was nasty of Canopus to raise the price of this $50.

See also:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/toolfarm/campmvr.html

[J.W.]

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
: VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
: analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
: firewire card fed captured by...
: Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
: DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
: After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
: learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
That's true. But all you need to do is to compare your end result to original
VHS tapes. If you don't find much of a difference, you're good. If you find
a big difference and want to re-do the stuff, then read further.

I read so many newsgroup messages that said they were very
dissatisfied with the DVD results. (And I think you were the author
of one of those messages.) I really didn't want to waste the time and
trash a DVDR just to find out what everyone else already knew. If
everyone says something is great, I'm a little skeptical but if
everyone says something is bad, I'll go ahead and believe it and spare
myself the headache of repeating everyone else's mistake.

I didn't make it clear in my original post but I was wondering if the
general advice in the past about Huffyuv is still relevant considering
that the Canopus ADVC300 is greatly improved from ADVC100. The
ADVC300 has noise filters, time-base-correction, etc which may make
the huffyuv+digital noise filter overkill.

I guess if someone says, "yeah I use to do disk-intensive and
time-intensive huffyuv but now with the new ADVC300, I quit that and
cut down my workflow for VHS-to-DVD immensely." -- that would be very
interesting to me.

[Leonid Makarovsky]

J.W. <***@att.net> wrote:
: I read so many newsgroup messages that said they were very
: dissatisfied with the DVD results. (And I think you were the author
: of one of those messages.) I really didn't want to waste the time and

I never transferred from VHS to DV to DVD. I was always going from VHS to
HUFFYUV so I'm now pretty happy with results.

I still think you should use trial and failure to see what suits *you* best.

--Leonid

[Bariloche]

Post by J.W.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv.

Certainly. It should yield better results than DV as a starting
material. If you have enough free space in the harddrive, that's the
way to go.

In my own case, I capture at 704x480 (or 576 for PAL), trim, crop, and
filter (denoise, may be some adjustments in light and color), all of
which would mean a re-encoding with DV, but no problem with Huffyuv.
Then make it into 352x480 (Avisynth's HorizontalReduceBy2), which I
encode with Tmpgenc in CQ mode (100% CQ is about 6500-7000 kbps; 85%
is much lower, and still very good quality; DVDs use to be 65%). That
resolution (D2, or half-D1) is closer to the VHS quality, and can
provide excellent results due to the high quality encoding while
giving you a smaller file in the end (IOW, you can fit more content
per DVD).

Post by J.W.
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?

Huffyuv requires more drive space. Canopus can process the image. But
you may want to control that yourself, as only you know what pleases
you best.

[Wilbert Dijkhof]

Post by Bariloche

Post by J.W.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv.

Certainly. It should yield better results than DV as a starting
material. If you have enough free space in the harddrive, that's the
way to go.
In my own case, I capture at 704x480 (or 576 for PAL), trim, crop, and
filter (denoise, may be some adjustments in light and color), all of
which would mean a re-encoding with DV, but no problem with Huffyuv.
Then make it into 352x480 (Avisynth's HorizontalReduceBy2), which I
encode with Tmpgenc in CQ mode (100% CQ is about 6500-7000 kbps; 85%
is much lower, and still very good quality; DVDs use to be 65%). That
resolution (D2, or half-D1) is closer to the VHS quality, and can

That's fine. However, I would use Bicubic instead (I think
ReduceBy2 is bilinear). However, you just should compare it and
see for yourself. I also would use 2 pass VBR.

I think most important is the denoise filter. What filter are
you using here?

Btw, I don't get your comment "which would mean a re-enconding
with DV, and not Huffyuv". Why? You are using AviSynth, so there
is no need for reencoding.

Post by Bariloche
provide excellent results due to the high quality encoding while
giving you a smaller file in the end (IOW, you can fit more content
per DVD).

Post by J.W.
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?

Huffyuv requires more drive space. Canopus can process the image. But
you may want to control that yourself, as only you know what pleases
you best.

Post by J.W.
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)

No, it doesn't improve anything if your tapes are VHS.

But s-video-SVHS gives much better quality than composite-VHS.

Post by Bariloche

Post by J.W.
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression

Denoising during post processing gives in general better quality.
So, I wouldn't call this an advantage.

Regards,

Wilbert

[Bariloche]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 11:36:21 +0200, Wilbert Dijkhof

Post by Wilbert Dijkhof
I also would use 2 pass VBR.

When you need an exact file size, that would be the best. Otherwise,
CQ shall encode better, using exactly what's needed for achieving the
quality you ask for.

Post by Wilbert Dijkhof
I think most important is the denoise filter. What filter are
you using here?

I do that with VirtualDub. I'm using Steven Don filters. First, static
noise reduction, from 2 to 4 (more than that, and it blurs too much),
followed by dynamic noise reduction, usually only up to 2, or even
none at all (one needs be very careful with dynamic denoising, as it
can make appear things in the image which shouldn't be there).

In case there is something very wrong with the lighting, I would add
Donald Graft's Histogram; and Donald Graft's Red/Green/Blue adjustment
if it's the color that stinks.

Tmgpenc denoising can also be very good, but VirtualDub's are easier
for me to configure.

Post by Wilbert Dijkhof
Btw, I don't get your comment "which would mean a re-enconding
with DV, and not Huffyuv". Why? You are using AviSynth, so there
is no need for reencoding.

I use Avisynth to resize, and to ensure an exact framerate (ChangeFPS
function), which is needed when you want to join several clips (the
framerate varies at capture time). But denoising, cropping,
trimming... I do all that with VirtualDub, and I don't mind doing it
in several steps, saving the Avi file each time -I leave the computer
working while I do other things. But then, it needs reencoding each
time.

[Richard Crowley]

"J.W." wrote ...

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content.

You must have exceptional VHS tapes to consider this "low-quality"
I've never seen VHS tapes this good.

Post by J.W.
Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result
in a poor quality DVD.

Have you actually seen artifacts with your material, or are
you just chasing theoretical possibilities?

Post by J.W.
My intention is to archive the VHS content to DVD with good enough
quality that I could feel comfortable throwing the old tapes away.
Yes, I know you can spend $100,000 on top-tier broadcast equipment but
I'm guessing you can get 99% of the high-quality with cheaper
consumer-grade devices.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv.

HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?
What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

Post by J.W.
However, I noticed that Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300)
that specifically cleans up analog videotapes (such as VHS).

If you have tapes that need timebase correction, dropout
compensation, color tweaking, etc. etc. then hardware such
as the Canopus ADVC-300 may be a good solution. However
if your tapes are this bad, then storing VHS captures in HuffyUV
is like buying a Cadillac Escalade to haul your trash in.

Post by J.W.
So the overview of the two methods as I see it...
Method #1: Huffyuv

IMHO, you haven't made a case for using HuffyUV vs plain
ordinary AVI-DV Unless you are buying an expensive, lossless
A/D capture hardware.

Post by J.W.
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)

DV is compressed 5:1, so uncompressed (HuffyUV) is
more likely something on the order of 65GB/hour.
Seems like outrageous overkill for old VHS captures.

Post by J.W.
Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
**looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill
for what I want to do?

Seems very much so to me.

Post by J.W.
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)

There is some improvement (for several reasons). But the
quality of your VHS tapes may not be sufficient to make this
worthwhile.

Post by J.W.
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?

Overkill for capturing old VHS tapes, IMHO.

Post by J.W.
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??

1) Direct MPEG recording using cheap video-card capture stuff.
2) DV converstion and AVI-DV storage (just as you are doing).

If you are worried about AVI-DV to MPEG conversion artifacts,
downgrade to a cheap capture card with software that directly
writes MPEG files. It may be completely sufficient for your old
VHS tapes.

[J.W.]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 08:25:47 -0700, "Richard Crowley"

Post by Richard Crowley
"J.W." wrote ...

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content.

You must have exceptional VHS tapes to consider this "low-quality"
I've never seen VHS tapes this good.

Post by J.W.
Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result
in a poor quality DVD.

Have you actually seen artifacts with your material, or are
you just chasing theoretical possibilities?

I'm chasing "theoretical possibilities". I've read several web
articles about these issues and smart people in this newsgroup have
complained about the final output DVD quality. I'm not sure I need to
trash several blank DVDRs to find out what everybody else already
knows.

Here's an example newsgroup message:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c4imj8%24l92%241%40news3.bu.edu&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv.

HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?
What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

Using Huffyuv allows digital filter processing on the uncompressed
stream *BEFORE* it gets converted to the compressed DV25 format. I
was under the impression that the digital filtering would be more
effective cleaning up the specks and noise on the Huffyuv file instead
of the DV25 file.

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
However, I noticed that Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300)
that specifically cleans up analog videotapes (such as VHS).

If you have tapes that need timebase correction, dropout
compensation, color tweaking, etc. etc. then hardware such
as the Canopus ADVC-300 may be a good solution. However
if your tapes are this bad, then storing VHS captures in HuffyUV
is like buying a Cadillac Escalade to haul your trash in.

It seems like we are talking about two different things. I'd only
want to go through the trouble of Huffyuv BECAUSE the source tapes ARE
bad. Apparently, the assortment of fancy cleanup digital filters out
there work BETTER on uncompressed AVI (such as Huffyuv) than the
slightly compressed AVI (such as dvcam DV25). Now I haven't tried any
of this--just read bits and pieces on google.

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
So the overview of the two methods as I see it...
Method #1: Huffyuv

IMHO, you haven't made a case for using HuffyUV vs plain
ordinary AVI-DV Unless you are buying an expensive, lossless
A/D capture hardware.

I don't think hardware is the issue. Instead, I think the crucial
issue is the application of digital filters and where in the chain
they would work the best. Do the cleaning filters work just as well
on compressed DV25 as they do on Huffyuv?

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)

DV is compressed 5:1, so uncompressed (HuffyUV) is
more likely something on the order of 65GB/hour.
Seems like outrageous overkill for old VHS captures.

The 65gb/hour WOULD be overkill if there was no digital processing
being done on the raw AVI. I thought this is what some people were
doing to get good results. Am I missing something???

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)

There is some improvement (for several reasons). But the
quality of your VHS tapes may not be sufficient to make this
worthwhile.

So far, I've gotten inconsistent answers on this. Some have said
s-video output will do nothing for standard VHS tapes. You have said
it will be "some improvement". I guess I'll get a SVHS tape deck just
to be on the safe side.

Post by Richard Crowley
1) Direct MPEG recording using cheap video-card capture stuff.
2) DV converstion and AVI-DV storage (just as you are doing).
If you are worried about AVI-DV to MPEG conversion artifacts,
downgrade to a cheap capture card with software that directly
writes MPEG files. It may be completely sufficient for your old
VHS tapes.

I can't do direct MPEG conversion because I need to chop up the AVI
files at the frame level before converting to MPEG.

[Richard Crowley]

"J.W." wrote ...

Post by J.W.
I'm chasing "theoretical possibilities". I've read several web
articles about these issues and smart people in this newsgroup have
complained about the final output DVD quality. I'm not sure I need to
trash several blank DVDRs

A few dozen DVDr disks are infiinitely cheaper than the hardware
you are talking about buying!

Post by J.W.
to find out what everybody else already knows.

Remember that the information you are reading is from the POV
of those particular individuals and based on THEIR combination
of video material, hardware, software, experience, expectations,
resources, time constraints, etc. etc. etc.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c4imj8%24l92%241%40news3.bu.edu&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

Sounds like he is trying to make DVDs of commercial videotapes.
Or he may have unreasonably high expectatioins, or a Gen-X
"Sesame Street/MTV" 30-second attention span.

Post by J.W.

Post by Richard Crowley
HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?
What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

Using Huffyuv allows digital filter processing on the uncompressed
stream *BEFORE* it gets converted to the compressed DV25 format.

Not clear why DV25 even enters into this scenario. If you are going
to the expense of a high-end capture card and scads of disk space for
uncompressed HuffyUV, just convert to MPEG directly from the
(post-processing) HuffyUV files.

Of couse, my opinion is that this is flaming overkill for capturing
home movies on old VHS tapes. Even the pros in Hollywood with
unlimited budgets likely don't go to this kind of effort to preserve
old amateur VHS material.

Post by J.W.
I was under the impression that the digital filtering would be more
effective cleaning up the specks and noise on the Huffyuv file instead
of the DV25 file.

Quite possibly. The question of whether preserving old VHS
tapes is worth all this effort is yet another question however.

Post by J.W.

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
However, I noticed that Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300)
that specifically cleans up analog videotapes (such as VHS).

If you have tapes that need timebase correction, dropout
compensation, color tweaking, etc. etc. then hardware such
as the Canopus ADVC-300 may be a good solution. However
if your tapes are this bad, then storing VHS captures in HuffyUV
is like buying a Cadillac Escalade to haul your trash in.

It seems like we are talking about two different things. I'd only
want to go through the trouble of Huffyuv BECAUSE the source
tapes ARE bad. Apparently, the assortment of fancy cleanup
digital filters out there work BETTER on uncompressed AVI
(such as Huffyuv) than the slightly compressed AVI (such as
dvcam DV25). Now I haven't tried any of this--just read bits
and pieces on google.

1) Exactly what kinds of artifacts are YOU seeing with YOUR
material that you want to correct?
2) Can you even do these kinds of cleanup with software?

IME, using hardware (such as the ADVC-300) is almost infinitely
better, cheaper AND faster than capturing uncompressed and
filtering in software. Besides, there are many artifacts (like
time-base errors) that are practically impossible to correct in
software AFTER the video has been captured and cast into ones
and zeroes.

...

Post by J.W.
I don't think hardware is the issue. Instead, I think the crucial
issue is the application of digital filters and where in the chain
they would work the best. Do the cleaning filters work just as
well on compressed DV25 as they do on Huffyuv?

The real question is whether all this software cleanup is either
better or cheaper or faster than using hardware (ADVC-300,
etc.)

Personally, I use one of my Panasonic AG-1980 SVHS VCRs,
a low-end broadcast TBC (Horita, $500, used on eBay) and a
ADVC-100 (or my Sony DSR-20 DVCAM VCR). I doubt that
ANY amount of software (and the time and disk space to deploy
it) would accomplish the kind of basic VHS recovery that this
combination (or similar hardware) offers.

...

Post by J.W.
The 65gb/hour WOULD be overkill if there was no digital
processing being done on the raw AVI. I thought this is
what some people were doing to get good results. Am I
missing something???

I think what you are missing is some real-world experiments
with YOUR hardware, YOUR software, and YOUR video.
You can't "dry-lab" this stuff. Advice on Usenet (including
my own) varies all over the map from words of gold from
world authorities, to the ranting of people who know nothing
about what they are talking about. Take it all with a grain of
salt and do your own experiments with your own equipment
and video material.

...

Post by J.W.
So far, I've gotten inconsistent answers on this. Some have
said s-video output will do nothing for standard VHS tapes.
You have said it will be "some improvement". I guess I'll
get a SVHS tape deck just to be on the safe side.

Seems like folly to just go out and buy something when you
don't know it will have any positive cost/benefit. Unless you
are rolling in money, of course.

Post by J.W.
I can't do direct MPEG conversion because I need to chop
up the AVI files at the frame level before converting to MPEG.

There are many people who claim to be able to successfully edit
MPEG files (see posts from "luminos" et al.) Personally, I wouldn't
worry about it and just use AVI-DV unless I ran into some real
problem.

[Rich]

Post by J.W.
On Mon, 10 May 2004 08:25:47 -0700, "Richard Crowley"

Post by Richard Crowley

Post by J.W.
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)

There is some improvement (for several reasons). But the
quality of your VHS tapes may not be sufficient to make this
worthwhile.

I think you are getting S-Video and SVHS. They are two different items.

S-Video is a method of transmitting video signals over a cable by dividing
the video information into two signals (The chrominance information and the
luminance information). This can produce sharper images over the standard
"composite video" signal which has both signals on one conductor which can
interfere with each other. Of course you need the S-video capabilities on
both ends. It came out in the early 90's IIRC. You don't need an SVHS
signal to possibly see the difference. I have seen the sharper images on
several VCR's which I've used in the past by trying S-Video and "composite
video".

SVHS or SuperVHS claims to provide over 400 lines of horizontal resolution
which is more than provided over standard VCR's. I have seen comparison
demos to show the difference, and it does appear sharper.

Rich

[Richard Crowley]

Post by Rich

Post by Richard Crowley
There is some improvement (for several reasons). But the
quality of your VHS tapes may not be sufficient to make this
worthwhile.

"Rich" wrote ...

Post by Rich
I think you are getting S-Video and SVHS. They are two
different items.

Uh, no. As you said yourself: "You don't need an SVHS signal to
possibly see the difference" Two of the reasons for this are...

In many (most?) cases, VCRs with Y/C inputs/outputs are
designed to higher quality than the average VHS VCR.

You avoid combining Y&C (as "composite") and then having
to separate them a few feet down at the other end of the cable.
Separating C from Y is a major source of video artifacts.

Post by Rich
S-Video is a method of transmitting video signals over a cable by dividing
the video information into two signals (The chrominance information and the
luminance information). This can produce sharper images over the standard
"composite video" signal which has both signals on one conductor which can
interfere with each other. Of course you need the S-video capabilities on
both ends. It came out in the early 90's IIRC. You don't need an SVHS
signal to possibly see the difference. I have seen the sharper images on
several VCR's which I've used in the past by trying S-Video and "composite
video".
SVHS or SuperVHS claims to provide over 400 lines of horizontal resolution
which is more than provided over standard VCR's. I have seen comparison
demos to show the difference, and it does appear sharper.

Indeed. "S-Video" (or more generally "Y/C video") has the advantage
of keeping the luminance ("Y") and chroma ("C") signals separate so
you don't have to deal with the artifacts of separating them at the other
end of the cable.

Virtally all VCRs (including original VHS) store the color and luminance
separately. The difference with S-VHS is that the luminance has increased
bandwidth (higher resolution). However the chroma/color part of S-VHS
is identical to regular VHS.

"S-Video" aka "Y/C Video" was introduced coincidentally with S-VHS
(and Hi-8). But it is not inextricably tied to S-VHS.

[Tribal]

Post by J.W.
I'm not sure I need to
trash several blank DVDRs to find out what everybody else already
knows.

Ever heard of RW media ?

[J.W.]

Post by Tribal

Post by J.W.
I'm not sure I need to
trash several blank DVDRs to find out what everybody else already
knows.

Ever heard of RW media ?

RW media isn't reliably readable on the DVD players I've got here.

[Bariloche]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 08:25:47 -0700, "Richard Crowley"

Post by Richard Crowley
HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?

It is not. Zero-compression is RGB. Huffyuv is lossless, but does
compress between 1/2 and 1/3. There is a lossy Huffyuv mode, which
compresses more, and would still be "lossless-like" in practical
terms.

Post by Richard Crowley
What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

If you need process the video several times, there would be a point in
using Huffyuv, as each re-encoding to DV would degrade it -while
Huffyuv is degradation-less. But I feel he is speaking of capturing as
Huffyuv in the first place, thus introducing no degradation at all
until the last step (encoding to mpeg).

[Leonid Makarovsky]

Richard Crowley <***@xprt.net> wrote:
: HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?
: What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
: loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
: via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

He's not using it for DV. He's using it for DVD.

: 1) Direct MPEG recording using cheap video-card capture stuff.

No way. This method sucks. Software compression on the fly is a pretty bad idea.

--Leonid

[Richard Crowley]

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: HuffyUV is a zeero-compression (lossless) codec, is it not?
: What is the point in using HuffyUV for DV as there is *no further
: loss* when the DV stream (which comes from the camcorder/VCR
: via firewire) is stored as an AVI-DV file.

"Leonid Makarovsky" wrote ...

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
He's not using it for DV. He's using it for DVD.

If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV
device. Which means that the incoming video stream is 5:1
compressed DV (unless he buys a video capture card that
supports uncompressed sampling). The ultimate destination
(DVD in this case) is not the issue.

[Leonid Makarovsky]

Richard Crowley <***@xprt.net> wrote:
: If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV

This is the excerpt of his original post:
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
: I've been doing it "wrong" so far. This is the current setup I use:

[Richard Crowley]

"Leonid Makarovsky" wrote ...

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like

By snipping the final word from my sentence you substantially
changed its meaning. If I had said what you quoted, then you
might be correct. But you did not quote the complete sentence.
to wit...

"If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV
*DEVICE*. Which means that the incoming video stream is 5:1
compressed DV (unless he buys a video capture card that
supports uncompressed sampling). The ultimate destination
(DVD in this case) is not the issue."

By "DV device" I meant something (like a camcorder, ADVC-100
outboard converter box, etc.) that does analog digitization AND
5:1 DV compression before it ever gets into the computer.

Please read (and snip) more carefully in the future.

[Leonid Makarovsky]

Richard Crowley <***@xprt.net> wrote:
: "If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV
: *DEVICE*. Which means that the incoming video stream is 5:1
: compressed DV (unless he buys a video capture card that
: supports uncompressed sampling). The ultimate destination
: (DVD in this case) is not the issue."

No. The original source was VHS. He was transferring it using a DV device.
That's correct. But he was thinking about a buying a capture card that supports
HUFFYUV (Method 1). So basically he didn't want to go VHS-DV-DVD. He wanted to
go VHS-Huffyuv-DVD(MPEG2).

--Leonid

[Morrmar]

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
HUFFYUV (Method 1). So basically he didn't want to go VHS-DV-DVD. He wanted to
go VHS-Huffyuv-DVD(MPEG2).

Which ultimately makes much more sense. Why compress an already limited
resolution source twice if you can easily avoid it?

[Richard Crowley]

"Leonid Makarovsky" wrote ...

Post by Leonid Makarovsky
: If I understand the situation properly, the SOURCE is a DV
: I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like

And then in the most important part (which you also snipped), he said...

" VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
" analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
" firewire card fed captured by...

He is clearly using a "DV source" (the Sony VX-2000) exactly
as I said in MY quote which was subject to your premature snippage.

[Kegsie]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 08:25:47 -0700, "Richard Crowley"

Post by Richard Crowley
"J.W." wrote ...

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content.
Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result
in a poor quality DVD.
My intention is to archive the VHS content to DVD with good enough
quality that I could feel comfortable throwing the old tapes away.
Yes, I know you can spend $100,000 on top-tier broadcast equipment but
I'm guessing you can get 99% of the high-quality with cheaper
consumer-grade devices.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv.
However, I noticed that Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300)
that specifically cleans up analog videotapes (such as VHS).
So the overview of the two methods as I see it...
Method #1: Huffyuv
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)
Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
**looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill
for what I want to do?
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??

Using an SVHS machine will improve the source signal significantly. It
won't be up to SVHS quality but you will get more than the 250 lines
of horizontal resolution from composite VHS. The colour signal will be
less noisy too.
Huffy is lossless in that the original signal is fully recoverable
from the compressed avi file it produces. It compresses at roughly
10:1, so much bigger files than other codecs but it doesn't throw any
info away. It is fast enough to compress full-resolution video (720 x
480 x 30fps) in real time as it's captured. Huffyuv also supports
lossless compression of RGB data, so it can be used for the output of
programs like VirtualDub.

If you want to use Huffyuv for video capture, your capture card must
be able to capture in YUY2, UYVY, or RGB format. Most capture cards
support one of these formats. YUY2 and UYVY will compress better and
more quickly than RGB, so use them rather than RGB if you can.
I would use Virtual dub to capture, point it at your card and use
huffy to encode. I would capture at the highest resolution you can
without dropping frames, as it will produse a better end result. You
can do some rough editing with the finished file and then apply
filters to remove noise. Finally use TmpgEnc to produce a vcd
compliant mpg. There really isn't much point in producing a full D1 or
SVHS file as the source is not up to that quality, even from an SHS
machine. You can now do frame accurate editing to this file using
TMPGEncDVDAuthor and add menus etc at the same time.
A _way_ easier method would be to use a Panasonic DVD recorder with HD
to capture, it has built in TBC, filters and a great codec. The menus
and editing are basic, but if you burn to a finalised DVD RAM you can
transfer to a PC to edit and author with TMPGEncDVDAuthor.
I used to do the former but now do the latter. It gives a really good
result and great scene access.
If you go the Vdub way this should prove helpful
http://www.doom9.org/capture/start.html

tony

[Nomen Nescio]

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD

[snip]

Post by J.W.
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?

HuffYUV will *theoretically* provide you with better quality than a DV
transcoder like the Canopus ADVC-300. However, in the "real world", the
Canopus ADVC-300 probably makes a lot more sense because:

1. To get better results with HuffYUV, you have to buy a "kick ass"
analog capture card like a Canopus DVRex RT Pro or a Matrox RT.X100
Xtreme Pro. "WinTV" or ATI AIW cards, in my experience, produce INFERIOR
results to a Canopus.
2. Potential A/V sync issues.
3. When dealing with VHS quality material, the limiting quality factor is
usually going to be the source material, not the transcoding/encoding
steps, provided you use reasonable parameters.

Post by J.W.
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)

I wouldn't. I don't think it would do a whole lot.

Post by J.W.
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?

Canopus DVStorm2+ is probably the cheapest "quality" analog capture card
sold today.

Post by J.W.
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??

Canopus ADVC-100 to DV25 AVI, edit with Sony's Vegas, render to
DVD-compliant MPEG-2 video and Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio and author/burn
to DVD-Video.

[GJS]

Canopus ADVC-100 to DV25 AVI, edit with Sony's Vegas, render to

Post by Nomen Nescio
DVD-compliant MPEG-2 video and Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio and author/burn
to DVD-Video.

What software are you using to capture using the Canopus ADVC ?

[Troy]

Buy the Canopus ADVC300.That is the one I am buying.I know a professional
using a Canopus ADVC100 and he recomended the 300 to me for some of the
added features.It's a little high in price but it should do a great job on
your tapes.Also you can turn around and sell it when you are done for close
to what you paid for it.

Good luck
Troy

Post by J.W.
I have about 40 VHS tapes I want to transfer to DVD and it looks like
VHS tape deck player (normal VHS not SVHS) into...
analog inputs of Sony VX-2000 camcorder into...
firewire card fed captured by...
Adobe Premire Pro saved as...
DV AVI files (13 gigabytes per hour)
After converting about a dozen tapes using this method, I've now
learned that using a DV codec and creating DV AVI files directly from
VHS tapes with my camcorder is a low-quality way of transferring the
content. Apparently, the MPEG2 algorithm will further degrade the
random noise & specks of the analog video source and result in a poor
quality DVD.
My intention is to archive the VHS content to DVD with good enough
quality that I could feel comfortable throwing the old tapes away.
Yes, I know you can spend $100,000 on top-tier broadcast equipment but
I'm guessing you can get 99% of the high-quality with cheaper
consumer-grade devices.
After doing some research, it looks like the best practice for higher
quality (especially VHS tapes) is Huffyuv. However, I noticed that
Canopus has a new device (the ADVC300) that specifically cleans up
analog videotapes (such as VHS).
So the overview of the two methods as I see it...
Method #1: Huffyuv
**use digital filter algorithms to clean up the signal
**Buy another analog-digital capture card that can use Huffyuv codec
**larger files (20+ gb an hour??)
Method #2: Use the new Canopus ADVC300 tool
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp
**creates DV AVI but it's CLEANED UP prior to DV compression
**looks to be somewhat more straightforward than Huffyuv approach
Considering the new Canopus ADVC300, is Huffyuv overkill for what I
want to do?
Should I buy a VCR with s-video output? (None of my tapes are SVHS
and I was wondering if the s-video output would improve anything.)
What analog-digital capture card should I buy that can utilize
Huffyuv codec?
What's everybody else doing to get quality archives of VHS onto
DVDR??
Comments and advice welcome...

[Bariloche]

Post by Troy
Buy the Canopus ADVC300.That is the one I am buying.I know a professional
using a Canopus ADVC100 and he recomended the 300 to me for some of the
added features.

I'm no expert on ADVC cards, but I believe Macrovision can only be
defeated on the ADVC100, not the ADVC300 -in case this matters here.